I don’t know how to categorize the subject of this post. Maybe it is Things People Say Without Thinking? Or Things You Should and Shouldn’t Say? We Live in a Society? Interactions with People You Know But Not Well Enough to Know the Right Thing to Say?
Also, keep in mind that it’s possible the two halves of this topic are not as connected in real life as they are in my brain.
Recently, I’ve been communicating with a couple of women about a volunteer project. Up until yesterday, we’d only spoken via email or phone or text, never in person. But we got together for coffee to hammer out the details of something that was cumbersome over the phone.
One of the women arrived a little bit late, and when she came in, the other woman and I introduced ourselves. The late woman said, cheerily, and with no rancor, “Oh! It’s so funny! I thought YOU would be taller [this to our companion] and YOU would be shorter [this to me]!”
It was an innocuous enough comment, although it struck me as relatable (I tend to think everyone is my age/height until I meet them in person – seriously, everyone reading this right now is 41 and 5’6” unless you have expressly stated otherwise) but also a slightly odd thing to say out loud.
(It also made me wonder, in what way am I giving off a short vibe, and what would a “short vibe” consist of, anyway?)
It reminded me of a very similar experience I had nearly twenty years ago. I was working remotely and had never met any of the people I interacted with daily. And there was no Zoom back then, and I don’t even know if iPhones had been invented (I am ancient), so I had no idea what anyone looked like and they had no idea what I looked like either.
When I flew out to the home office, I got to meet everyone in person. And one of the women I worked with said to me, “Wow, you look so different from how I pictured you. I thought you would be fat and ugly.”
I mean. WHAT. Who says that, a), and secondforth why, WHY would you say that to anyone?
Fat, fine – maybe I talked a lot about food (unsurprising) or maybe I had a jolly persona, I don’t know, whatever. People come in all different sizes, and I know fat people and skinny people and medium people and their sizes don’t have any particular value for me. But juxtaposing it with “ugly” makes it clear that, to this person, “fat” was a negative rather than a neutral attribute.
And, okay, giving off a “short vibe” or a “blond vibe” or a “nerdy vibe” or a “freckly vibe” is puzzling… but giving off a “fat, ugly” vibe just seems clearly negative, right? What the hell does that MEAN, and why do I need to KNOW THAT?
Anyway, I was 25 or whatever and I laughed about it and moved on – the colleague was someone with whom I worked very well for many years, and she either didn’t know how rude her comment was or meant it to cause pain but didn’t get any reaction. But I have remembered it, and puzzled over it once in awhile.
I think, a lot of times, we feel like we SHOULD say something, but aren’t quite sure WHAT to say, and so we end up putting our foot in it.
Personally, I think the old tried and true, “It’s so nice to finally meet you!” is plenty, but I can fully understand how someone might want to be more specific/original. Plus, if I met you in person and you were 21 and 6’3”, I just might be surprised enough that I would blurt out something bizarre.
This brings me to the topic that * I * feel is related, but may not actually be related. Maybe third cousins twice removed.
It is also about Things You Should Say When Saying Something Is Required. More specifically, what do you say to someone when societal rules require you to comment on a situation but don’t know how the recipient feels about the situation?
Here are some examples:
Example 1: A coworker’s parent has died, and you know about the death, and know the coworker well enough that it would be rude/noticeable NOT to say something, but you don’t know the coworker well enough to know what their relationship was like with the parent. So many people have such fraught relationships with their parents, and death can bring up complicated feelings already, whether the relationship was happy or strained.
“I’m so sorry for your loss” is the standard statement when someone has died, and maybe it’s fine in this instance, even if this particular parent’s death may not feel like a loss to this particular child. “May your parent’s memory be a blessing” is more geared toward the mourner, and therefore might not be appropriate if the relationship between child and parent wasn’t a happy one. “May your parent rest in peace” might be a good neutral statement that doesn’t convey the expectation that all parent/child relationships are full of love and respect. Maybe “I’m so sorry.” is all you need in this instance. It’s short, it’s simple. It covers a wide range of possibilities.
Example 2: A parent you see regularly but aren’t close to is pregnant. You happen to know this parent is pregnant. You also happen to know, from a mutual acquaintance, that the pregnancy was unplanned and that there are issues in the marriage (infidelity, serious illness, abuse) or in the pregnant person’s life (job insecurity, desire to be done having children, illness) or with the pregnancy itself (known complication or disease) that mean the pregnancy might not be happy or desirable. But if you don’t know the parent well enough to KNOW these things yourself, how do you acknowledge the news?
“Congratulations!” is simple, but implies happiness. “You look wonderful” might be okay. I… can’t think of any neutral statements about pregnancy that don’t imply either “babies are wonderful and you should be happy about this one!” or “OMG I heard that you don’t want this kid, what a crap situation.”
Example 3: Someone you know, but not well, is getting a divorce. You have no idea if this is a happy relief for the couple or a devastating sadness.
If this was truly someone I didn’t know, I might just not say anything at all. And yet… it’s a major life change, and it might feel weird to say nothing. But I would want to say the right thing!
I’m guessing that people in ALL of these situations and more get ALL SORTS of comments, and that they just learn to grit their teeth and get through the ones that are totally off base. But I can imagine that each new comment could cause additional pain for a person going through an already painful experience. It would be nice to be able to just be neutral, at least at first. And then, once the person says, “Oh! I’m actually quite glad my stepmother died – she was locking me in the attic every day and making me scrub the castle floor and refused to pay for an exterminator!” you can say, “Well, good riddance!” or “May she meet the appropriate judgment in the hereafter” or whatever.
Re commenting on appearance – parents do this a lot to their kids. And it’s hard to restrain that impulse with your own family! I’m trying to curb that for my husband who loves to give advice and wants to comment on the state of our daughter’s acne (just average teen acne) to her. Its an unwelcome kind of comment! He wants to give acne care tips (since he struggled with it as a teen), but those comments fall flat.
In general, we have a policy of “we don’t comment on other people’s bodies,” which I agree about. But SO MANY PEOPLE do not have that policy, including other people in our extended family, and I am Not A Fan.
I am 40.85 or something and 5’7” so you are essentially correct. And I also assume that.
I once hashed out the divorce one with the internet when I had heard about a pending divorce through the grapevine and knew I was about to see them and be told about it. We settled on something like “well we know you are making the right choice for your relationship and we are here to support you however you need.” Or something. I believe I worked it out to be more eloquent at the time. It worked. He told me about it on the Ariel ride at Disney and I was glad I had a prepared statement.
The other one I always have trouble with is when someone tells me about a medical/similar issue that is just the way someone is but is generally looked on by society as something bad. Like when I first met someone who became a good friend and I spoke to her kid and she said “oh he has autism” (implying that that was why he didn’t answer me) and I needed a response to that. It recently happened to me again with spina bifeda and the other woman handled it so beautifully but I need to be more prepared for the future. I know what not to say, but with conversations being a two sided event, I need something to say next.
Oh and I have a fun one too. A neighbor once told me her son was having a baby and I said “oh congratulations!” and she said “they don’t have any money.”
LOL to your neighbor. YES to the medical issue topic — I always wish I were more articulate when it comes to handling my daughter asking questions or staring at someone who may have physical or other differences. She went somewhere recently where a person was vocalizing, and she was curious about it, and the adult we were with handled it so well – so clearly, and with absolutely no sense of “hush, we don’t talk about this” or “this is weird/bad” and I wish I had recorded exactly how she responded.
You just brought back some memories! Back in the Y2K era I used to do technical support, and I would end up logging tons of hours over the course of months with our customers before I met them in person. It was before blogging and one of the journaling exercises that I used to do was to imaging what these people were like in person. I was almost always dead wrong – people who sounded old turned out to be young, people who sounded tired would be bright and bouncy IRL.
I think that “I’m so sorry” is great for #1 and I’m at a loss for 2 and 3.
Isn’t it so funny how our brains fill in the details, with so little basis in reality?!
Having been the one making an awkward comment once or twice, through brain moving slower than mouth, I will say that I have kicked myself many times over it, long after I HOPE the person has forgotten it.
For your scenarios, I think starting simple is best, then taking your cue from what they say next. “I’m so sorry” is the best I could come up with for 1; maybe “Oh! Now that’s news!” would work for 2. For 3, I’m thinking, “Oh dear, I hope that goes smoothly” would be a start. I don’t know, it’s all easier in theory than it is when you’re facing the person.
I like your responses! And yes, I have definitely opened my mouth a few times and been mortified by the inane things that flew out!
OMG about the fat and ugly comment. Wow. I just can’t even imagine making that kind of comment – or thinking that. Who starts off with that assumption? And then admits to having made that assumption? I don’t really think about what other people look like, though. There are just countless options for how a person could look that it’s not worth picturing them, at least for me. Although at my company, most people have a photo associated with their outlook account so you can kind of see what a person looks like, and now that zoom is so prevalent, I have a better idea of what people look like than I did pre-pandemic when zoom wasn’t so mainstream!
I think I am more apt to not say anything than to try to say the right thing. I would acknowledge the loss by saying I am sorry for your loss. Because even if it was a hard relationship, losing a person can result in grieving not just for the person but for the relationship you wanted but never had… But I’d be less apt to comment on a pregnancy or divorce unless I knew the person but of the two, I’d be more apt to say something about the pregnancy, but along the lines of “You look great” or “I hope you are feeling well.”
I am 65 and 5’4 on a good day. 🙂 I think a simple “I’m sorry” covers a lot of ground. I tend to put the ball into the other person’s court, “How are you feeling/doing?” Then they can share or not. “Fine” I leave it alone, more information “I’m really conflicted about this pregnancy/death/whatever.” the conversation continues. I let the other person do the “driving” and “steering.”
I like “How are you feeling?” Very open-ended!
I like “how are you feeling?” as well. It’s pretty safe. Or “how are you doing with it?” which is similar but has a different vibe. (Also, my father is in end stage Parkinson’s disease and people always say “I’m sorry” and I appreciate the sentiment and it is ALWAYS enough.)
This topic reminds me of a conversation fresh in my head because it happened last night. For reference, I am 5’3” and quite petite and 47 (and I assume everyone is 5’8” and 35 ha). I am a stepmother (and have never once locked anyone in a attic but I get the stereotype – no one *wants* a stepmom) and my stepdaughters are big boned gals, very strong and gorgeous. I said something to my husband about stepdaughter the younger being “substantially taller and heavier than I” and my husband immediately said “shhh! People can hear you!” And I was flummoxed because I meant it as a compliment, like she’s so strong and beautiful, but HE has absorbed diet culture to the point that “taller and heavier” is automatically assumed to be an insult (but not if you’re talking about a man AHEM). My ideal body type would be someone like Megan Thee Stallion, for reference.
Ugh yes. Why have the words for normal (and beautiful) bodily variances become so taboo? Stupid diet culture and “thin is best” thinking. >:(
I would like to share a brief vent here, even though it is only tangentially related to the topic. It drives me UP A WALL when someone says something like “Oh, I’m sorry,” or “I’m sorry for your loss,” or whatever, and the other person says, “Oh—it’s not YOUR fault.” If it had happened only once, and with someone who was unfamiliar with ritual social speech (like a small child, perhaps), I would think it was a funny little anomaly. But I have seen it happen MULTIPLE TIMES, and it has happened to ME when I have been the one saying “I’m so sorry,” and I honestly don’t know what the next line is. I…KNOW?…it’s not my fault that their parent died / that they are getting a divorce / that they are going through a hard time? That’s not what “I’m sorry” MEANS in this context? WHY
Yes. This is a peculiar response. I am always left wondering… do they really think I think it is my fault? (No.) Are they irritated at me for saying “I’m sorry”? (Maybe, but… why?)
I think it is a knee-jerk response a bit. The other default is to say “its ok” in response to “I am sorry” but it ISN’T ok, so that answer doesn’t work. For some reason, “thank you” doesn’t seem to spring to mind to those folks. Possibly because of the reason you are saying sorry in the first place.
This might not be the case, but thinking it makes ME feel better when people respond that way to me.
I’m not sure if this is exactly related, but my mom reminded me to say I’m sorry to someone whose 97 year old mother died this weekend. I’m 40 and I remembered to say something on my own. Do motherly reminders like this ever end? I’m guessing not in my case.
Sigh.
That divorce thing has come up for me more than once and I have struggled. Now, I sort of turn it into a “I’m sorry for the end of your relationship, but I know you’ll go on to great things.” It’s neutral enough that I’m not slagging on the other partner, but I’m acknowledging that they are going through something. It’s so hard, though!
With pregnancies, I do not talk about them at all unless someone brings it up first because they are complicated and boy, do I NOT want to get it wrong. If someone is talking about it (names for baby, getting ready, medical stuff), I always start with “how are you feeling?” so that it centers the conversation on the pregnant person and not the (sometimes complicated) fetus.
But sometimes I forget all my rules about these topics and just mess it all up because I am socially awkward.
These are such interesting scenarios and I can 100% relate. I have a hard time knowing what to say in these sorts of circumstances and sometimes really am the awkward person that does end up saying nothing at all.
I have a friend with much better EQ and I sometimes ask her, as well. And recently I’ve been more honest and have actually said to a few people: “I don’t have the “right” words, but I want you to know I’m thinking of you. Is there anything I can do to help out?” It’s relatively general and comes from the heart and leaves the conversation open for people to respond with how they’re feeling.
I am 35 and 5’4, so a bit off your blanket internet assumption!
I am neither 41 or 5’6, just so you know – much older and much shorter! 😉
Any of these topics always leave me floundering. But then again, most any encounter leaves me floundering. But I can honestly say that I’d NEVER say, “I thought you’d be fat and ugly.” Who DOES that?!
Right?!?!
Maybe with the pregnant one you could say, I HOPE YOU ARE GETTING ENOUGH REST/SLEEP/ ARE COMFORTABLE. Avoid the pregnancy and make it about the stuff that bodies go through in pregnancy.
I find that I THOUGHT YOU WERE UGLY AND FAT so shocking. What on earth?
Unrelated, but cute – Ed is in Budapest. He met a few friends who I think are from Germany. He marvels at how good their English is, but every time he runs into them they say NICE TO MEET YOU.
Oh, I thought of one that made me uncomfortable and guilty. I met a woman with a boy in Tank’s kindergarten class. I had older boys in the school and I didn’t know this woman, so I asked her if he was her oldest. MY OLDEST AND MY ONLY. Turns out she was very distraught at not having more children and this was a theme in every subsequent conversation and I felt like a total ass. I didn’t mean to throw salt on her wound. Oh, so awkward.
“I thought you’d be fat and ugly” is a very weird, very rude thing to say. I guess it was meant in a complimentary way but WE ARE LIVING IN A SOCIETY.
When I used to write for YMC, most people lived in TO and when I went there the first time to meet in person, my height was commented on a lot. “You’re so tall!” For the record, I’m 5’7″, which is tallish but not tall-tall, I don’t think.
1) I say “I was so sorry to hear about your parent’s passing.” if I don’t know the person and their relationship.
2) I would ask “how are you feeling these days?”
3) I would ask “how are you doing?”
#3 reminds me of, years ago, the assistant principal at the elementary school changed her last name. This was in September, I was very involved at the school, and I popped over to chat at a school event. “I hear congratulations are in order!” I said, in reference to her name change, which I assumed was from marriage. It was from divorce, she was going back to her maiden name. I was mortified when she told me, but less so when she said “Congratulations are in order, my ex was an asshole.”
I think I always assume parents are 34 + the age of their oldest/only child, because that works for me. Oddly, it’s not always right.
Oh! Great subject.
I agree that the awkwardness itself is what leads us to say the stupidest things when that is exactly what we want to avoid doing. Agg! But! What motivates me to continue to say something (however maladroit) is the horrible fear that the affected person might feel abandoned or lonely, on top of the other misery. This is the worse fear by far! When you hear bereaved people talk about acquaintances avoiding them, even seeing them crossing the street (not unobtrusively enough), and saying things like: “That’s when you find out who your friends really are” I mean, anything is better than *that*. So, I try to keep it simple, I just say: I was so sorry to hear the news / how are you? / tell me if I can help. Leaving it open so I can follow their cues. I just want to convey that they are not alone and in fact we all will have our moments of tumult, life being what it is.
I am 51, but the height is pretty much dead on (if I haven’t shrunk too much). Years ago I was in southern Ontario visiting a friend and made a detour to meet the blogger who was going to be my roommate at BlogHer 2012 in New York. I walked into the restaurant, she got up and I said “oh, you’re tall!” and immediately felt like a dork.
It drives me crazy that whenever my parents see our family they come back and the first comment is ALWAYS about who’s gained or lost weight. And then in a stunning lack of self-awareness my mother complained about her friend doing the same thing! We’ve always tried to avoid weight talk around our kids and to not make eating a fraught thing (I’ve mentioned how effed up my relationship with food is, which I think started happening early), and my daughter at 19 says she doesn’t crazy love her body but they’re “homies”, and they both seem to heed their hunger cues really well, so, yay?
WTF about the ‘fat and ugly’ comment? We once had an older babysitter who, when I told her there was leftover pie if she wanted some, said “you and I don’t need any, but thanks”. I was dressed up for a fancy Christmas dinner with my husband six months after I’d had Angus, so that stung
I am sending that babysitter a glare so fierce it should transcend time and space. Wtf.
I absolutely love that your daughter says she and her body are “homies”. I’d be very encouraged by that.
Recently I was talking with a friend about this very topic: how difficult it is to know what to say to someone in a way that doesn’t offend them. I lean toward saying something positive and vague like, “you’re looking healthy/good/happy today.” Then I wait to see where the conversation goes from there. It allows the other person to either say “thank you” or start telling me their story. Either way, I feel I’ve been polite.
“Hope you’re doing okay” covers a lot of ground and puts the focus on the person and not the details or specifics of the situation, I find. I’m furious at that former coworker for you… what the hell? No way it was a compliment, because at its best it means you have an unattractive voice? Some women are madness to work with- you have to laugh I guess. When I can catch it in the moment I LOVE throwing it back at them with a “wow that’s so rude- what do you mean?” But often I’m too stunned to do it unfortunately
I usually cannot help ” trying to imagine” what someone looks like based on their voice/demeanor, although I admit that I have no idea how my brain comes up with certain look-scenarios. Maybe it’s based on other people that you know by that name or voice/demeanor?
I would never say something like “I thought you were fat and ugly” to someone in person though … WTH??? I mean, it’d be okay to say that you imagined them differently but to say that you thought they were fat and ugly…. damn. That’s quite a statement.
In regards to responses to personal news – it’s hard to react appropriately if you don’t know the person well. I usually try to be as brief/neutral as possible, even if it might sound less empathetic than I would usually be with people. It’s easier to say something wrong than just say something “impersonal”.